memory_alphafandomcom-20200223-history
Talk:Human religion
Judaism ;Judaism: *...This has not been referenced at all in Star Trek...Christianity has, Buddhism has, but Judaism has not. Unless it was specifically referenced in an episode, it should not be here. --Alan del Beccio 21:51, 22 Aug 2005 (UTC) * Delete. - AJHalliwell 01:09, 23 Aug 2005 (UTC) * Agreed. Delete. --Scimitar 01:16, 23 Aug 2005 (UTC) *'Delete' Tobyk777 19:04, 23 Aug 2005 (UTC) *'Delete'. -- SmokeDetector47 // ''talk'' 22:03, 23 Aug 2005 (UTC) *'Keep'. - Jesus guys, give it some time to develop. You guys are trigger happy. Star Trek is full of things influenced by Judaism. (the vulcan greeting for example) Give me a couple of weeks to put this together - I've got a day job, a family, and a life. WehrWolf 17:22, 24 Aug 2005 (UTC) **for example: *** Vulcan salute *** David Opatoshu *** Spanish Inquisition *** Bible *** Adolf Hitler *** Star Trek: Starfleet Corps of Engineers *** "Amok Time" *** "Dagger of the Mind" *** "Storm Front, Part II" * Trigger happy is hardly the word. Perhaps after all of the conversations we have had regarding your previous contributions, you have not yet understood our policies -- especially when it comes to understanding article point-of-view. Memory Alpha is not wikipedia. It is limited to Trek universe content, and is written in the point of view from within the Trek universe. The links you point to are all in reference to background information (and information considered "Trek relevant" but not Trek-canon). Judaism, for example, is not supported by an actual specific reference in any episode, which is noted in the original post for this deletion. Additionally, IF we want to make notes about religous influence used in the making of Trek, such as these "'Trek relevant' but not Trek-canon" references you pointed out...they should be noted in the background information in religion. We are not in the habit of creating pages to fill solely with background information, as was the case with US Space Command badges, and the reason for its merge/delete. --Alan del Beccio 18:28, 24 Aug 2005 (UTC) * I would have though it to be referenced somewhere, but since no one can think of any and since nothing links to it, I vote for delete. --From Andoria with Love 18:35, 24 Aug 2005 (UTC) * Yeah -- i think this one should be deleted until someone mentions it onscreen (i was writing a big answer but i think Alan covered most of the points i did-- all of the instances you cite are background information not article information -- wherefore there's no real way to have it be its own canon article) -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 20:40, 24 Aug 2005 (UTC) * Perhaps a category page on Jewish influences on Star Trek? Could anyone support that? Or would that be going too far out on a limb? Perhaps such an effort is far too progressive for Memory Alpha. WehrWolf 21:54, 24 Aug 2005 (UTC) *I think you are missing the point of what is trying to be done here. This is about recording information. Creative writing is used only insofar as to further express the natural flow of data and create a sense of narration. What you are proposing is the interpretation of data, but we wish to leave that up to the reader. Think of it as a means to not only reduces bias, but also invite participation on the part of the reader. Jaf 22:08, 24 Aug 2005 (UTC)Jaf *I think you're right. I am missing the point here. It's probably a good thing too. WehrWolf 22:18, 24 Aug 2005 (UTC) *Is it just me or do the user pages for Tobyk777 and WehrWolf look suspiciously similar? --Schrei 22:46, 24 Aug 2005 (UTC) *Toby must be a gentleman and a scholar. WehrWolf 22:53, 24 Aug 2005 (UTC) ** What's that supposed to mean? Tobyk777 01:01, 25 Aug 2005 (UTC) *I also might add that the deteltion page is not a page to talk about user pages. Tobyk777 01:01, 25 Aug 2005 (UTC) *'Keep' - its obvious that there are ideas in star trek borrowed from judaism, therefor it should be kept, but with mention of this Jaz 01:02, 25 Aug 2005 (UTC) *'Delete', for the same reasons Alan and Captain Mike brought up. -- Miranda Jackson (Talk) 01:36, 25 Aug 2005 (UTC) * I've created Religion/temp as a proposed example of how Judaism could/should be handled if we were to have an article called Human religion. The intro is mostly fluff for the example, the focus, in this case, would obviously be on the Judaism section in the background. As for all of WehrWolf's "examples", there were really only two or three relevant "Jewish" references. Creating Human religion seems to be a worthwhile alternative to the text-rich content it would otherwise add to religion, which is essentially classified as a list. --Alan del Beccio 04:17, 25 Aug 2005 (UTC) ** I like the look of the temp page; I think it works as a pretty good catch-all for religious references which don't have their own articles. Support creation of human religion and redirect of Judaism there. -- SmokeDetector47 // ''talk'' 04:44, 25 Aug 2005 (UTC) *'Delete', as the aforementioned influences are not canon but merely outside origins and influences. If Memory Alpha is about the making of the scripts and concepts, then keeping and merging to human religions would be fine, but if we are writing this from the P.O.V. of persons in the Trek universe, then delete.--Smith 23:06, 26 Aug 2005 (UTC) Judaic Jocularity A friend of mine found a mention of Judaism (or at least "Jewish") in a joke in the episode "The Outrageous Okona" (thanks to the great Joe Piscopo). Here's the joke: : There’s a Jewish guy, there was a Greek guy and there was an Irish guy. They die, they go to heaven, right. And they’re up there at St. Peter’s gate and they don’t wanna die, they wanna hang out on Earth, so they go to St. Peter: “Pete, gimme one more chance on Earth over there, on Earth and if you just give me one more chance on Earth, we won’t do anything bad.” St. Peter says: “One nasty thing, if you guys do one nasty thing - poof, you’re gone, poof you’re gone, one nasty thought and you’re gone.” So St. Peter sends the Greek guy, the Jewish guy and the Irish guy down to Earth. As they are walking, they are walking down the street, there’s a bar. The Irish guy plans to go into the bar - poof, he disappears just like that. Well, a twenty dollar bill goes rolling down the hill right, right in front of the guys... Now this joke is somewhat obscene, especially for Star Trek, but it was told in the episode (albeit in the sped up scene). I don't know if this is enough to Undelete Judaism, so I'm posting it here, per others' wishes.--Tim Thomason 01:08, 5 March 2006 (UTC) *It's good enough for me. Nice find. Jaf 01:15, 5 March 2006 (UTC)Jaf **Actually, it could be enough to have an article on "Jewish", but for canon purposes it would have to be something along the lines of: "Jewish was a term sometimes used in 20th Century humor to describe the religious affiliation or ethnic background of a person." Based solely on the joke, nothing else could be inferred for purposes of Trek. Turning it into a long ranging history of Judaism and attempting to bolster it by minor bits of trivia or interpretation wouldn't - in my opinion - be appropriate for this Star Trek only site. That being said, I question the value of such a short article. Aholland 12:17, 10 March 2006 (UTC) **I, on the other hand, recognize the value of such a short article. Piscopo referred to Jewish people, so a short article called "Judaism" can define who Jewish people are, in a brief stement to give the line from the episode a frame of reference, with no further information. Unless you're trying to argue that "Jewish" isn't referring to Judaism?(!) -- Captain M.K.B. 03:54, 16 March 2006 (UTC) ***Interesting you should bring that up. Actually, a case can be made that "Jewish" describes a more expansive group than those who follow "Judaism", since one can be Jewish by ethnic descent yet not subscribe to Judaism. Therefore we do not know whether the joke about someone being "Jewish" means ethnicity only or religious affiliation! And if the former, the article on "Judiasm" would not be warranted based on the dialogue. However, I don't think we need get quite that detailed here. (Though see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish#Who_is_a_Jew.3F if interested.) The current article on Judaism is both short and covers the observed material close enough given its importance in Trek; I have no issues with that article. Aholland 04:20, 16 March 2006 (UTC)